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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 00:34:20 +0000
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Subject: Re: [geda-user] Proposing a New Hierarchical Data Structure?
From: "Peter Clifton (petercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
To: gEDA User Mailing List <geda-user AT delorie DOT com>
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The data model is freely available in a machine readable language
(Express). (Express is human readable too, but it only really tells you
structure / validation rules... You need the standard to understand how to
apply the structures, and what the fields mean).

Your library may be able to provide access to a copy, depending on its
subscriptions.

The charge for access is indeed a pain, but it's not huge. Especially when
compared to the actual monetary value of developer time required to do
anything with it (even if that developer time is mostly volunteered).

Oh - and access to the standard in no means implies you'll be able to
extract the information you want from it... When I had my head deep into
this last, it took months of getting to know how it was structured,
modelling idioms etc..

To this day, I don't (for example), know how to recreate (from the
standard) the minimum graph of entity information contained in the StepCODE
example "minimum AP203 file".. This example is supposed to ONLY contain the
minimum set of data entities required to create a valid product.

In other words, the standard is like an arcane reference manual... it
contains very little written with the aim of explaining how to actally USE
the information model in a non domain expert friendly way.

Peter
On 21 Dec 2015 23:22, "Nicklas Karlsson (nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com) [via
geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:

> That's seems like a real problem. Would it be possible to use document for
> GNU licensed software following  this standard?
>
>
>
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:03:34 -0800
> "Ouabache Designworks (z3qmtr45 AT gmail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com]" <
> geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Peter Clifton (
> > petercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com) [via geda-user AT delorie DOT com] <
> > geda-user AT delorie DOT com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > We despirately need interchange and portable data, just as 3D cad
> needed
> > > it when the STEP standard was begun. AP210 exists, and is non
> proprietary.
> > > Embrace it.
> > >
> > > Embrace the concepts and models it uses, even if we still start with
> our
> > > own file formats and internal data structures.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Peter Clifton
> > >
> > >
> >
> >  Tried to find a copy and they want $198 for it.
> >
> > John Eaton
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">The data model is freely available in a machine readable lan=
guage (Express). (Express is human readable too, but it only really tells y=
ou structure / validation rules... You need the standard to understand how =
to apply the structures, and what the fields mean).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Your library may be able to provide access to a copy, depend=
ing on its subscriptions.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The charge for access is indeed a pain, but it&#39;s not hug=
e. Especially when compared to the actual monetary value of developer time =
required to do anything with it (even if that developer time is mostly volu=
nteered).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Oh - and access to the standard in no means implies you&#39;=
ll be able to extract the information you want from it... When I had my hea=
d deep into this last, it took months of getting to know how it was structu=
red, modelling idioms etc..</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">To this day, I don&#39;t (for example), know how to recreate=
 (from the standard) the minimum graph of entity information contained in t=
he StepCODE example &quot;minimum AP203 file&quot;.. This example is suppos=
ed to ONLY contain the minimum set of data entities required to create a va=
lid product.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">In other words, the standard is like an arcane reference man=
ual... it contains very little written with the aim of explaining how to ac=
tally USE the information model in a non domain expert friendly way.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Peter<br>
</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 21 Dec 2015 23:22, &quot;Nicklas Karlsson (<a=
 href=3D"mailto:nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com">nicklas DOT karlsson17 AT gmail DOT com<=
/a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a=
>]&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">That=
&#39;s seems like a real problem. Would it be possible to use document for =
GNU licensed software following=C2=A0 this standard?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:03:34 -0800<br>
&quot;Ouabache Designworks (<a href=3D"mailto:z3qmtr45 AT gmail DOT com">z3qmtr45@=
gmail.com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delo=
rie.com</a>]&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT d=
elorie.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Peter Clifton (<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:petercjclifton AT googlemail DOT com">petercjclifton AT google=
mail.com</a>) [via <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delor=
ie.com</a>] &lt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:geda-user AT delorie DOT com">geda-user AT delorie DOT com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; We despirately need interchange and portable data, just as 3D cad=
 needed<br>
&gt; &gt; it when the STEP standard was begun. AP210 exists, and is non pro=
prietary.<br>
&gt; &gt; Embrace it.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Embrace the concepts and models it uses, even if we still start w=
ith our<br>
&gt; &gt; own file formats and internal data structures.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Peter Clifton<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 Tried to find a copy and they want $198 for it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; John Eaton<br>
</blockquote></div>

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